Thursday, November 30, 2006

I'm asking YOU!

by Harley Ayre

This will be a different kind of blog. Instead of me telling you about some aspect of airgunning, I want to ask your opinions about some important things.

Calibers
There are four smallbore calibers: .177, .20, .22 and .25. There are lots of PCPs in .177 and .22 but a lot fewer in .25. And .20 caliber is pretty rare. Why is that, and what is your favorite airgun caliber? If you have more than one, tell me all of them and what you use them for. Do you have any interest in calibers larger than .25?

Fill pressures
The most common fill pressure these days is 3,000 psi, which is 206 bar. But is that the best pressure? A few German guns now have a maximum fill of 300 bar, or 4,350 psi. BSA has some rifles with a 250 bar maximum fill. On the other end of the spectrum, the American-made US FT rifle uses a maximum fill of 1,800 psi to get 60 shots of 10.5-grain Crosman Premiers at 900 f.p.s. So, the pressure can go either way. Do you wish it would go in a certain direction and can you tell me why you want that?

Regulators
You probably know what regulators do, so do you want one in an airgun? If you don't know, a regulator drops the air pressure in the reservoir to a lower pressure. It then fills a firing chamber with lower-pressure air. The firing valve is tuned to the lower air pressure. As long as it's available, the valve functions the same from shot to shot. Do you want one of these, or do you just want a gun that has lots of shots with very little velocity variation from shot to shot?

Repeaters
How important is having more than one shot? Do you actually use this feature (or wish you could) or does it just sound better than a single-shot? There are tradeoffs with all repeaters. Usually, the feed mechanism dictates what pellets can and cannot be used. Sometimes it limits the length of the pellet, while other times it restricts the type of nose the pellet can have. Today's repeaters are almost as accurate as single-shots, so accuracy isn't the objection it once was, but a repeater can jam if the pellets don't feed smoothly. That fact can limit your pellet choices, too. So, how important is the repeating function to you?

Size and weight
Do you want a big, heavy rifle or a small, lightweight one? You probably know that the longer the barrel the more efficient the airgun. Is that more important, or is a portable, lightweight gun what you want? Are exotic materials like titanium worth the extra cost to keep the weight low?

Materials and finishes
Is a highly polished wood and metal gun with deep bluing important, or do you want a matte black or camouflage finish on your airgun? Is figured wood more important than a stable stock made of fiberglass? Does the use of engineering plastic matter? What about aluminum?

Pellets
Do you like using diabolo pellets, or do you wish airguns could use solid bullets, instead? What is the greatest distance you usually shoot? How accurate do you want to be at that distance?

Accessories
Besides a scope, what are the most important accessories? Bipod? Night vision? Laser rangefinder? Pellet holder? Scope with digital imaging/video capability? Visible laser? You tell me.

Anything else?
Have I left anything out? Is there some other feature you would like to see, or one you wish would go away? I'm trying to learn how good today's crop of airguns is and what improvements are needed to make them better. You are the only ones who know the answer to that.

17 Comments:

At 4:56 PM, turtle said...

WEll thanks for asking Harley.

Ive been shooting air for only a few years so take that into consideration...My oppinions are those of an advanced beginner only.

The gun that brought me into the sport was a Talon I found that was a close out thru Cabelas. It was a Phenonimal shooter out of the box and was sighted to shoot 100 yds at the club I shoot at. I bench that with the airforce bipod and a 6-24x44 tasco varmenter (I'd try to do better on glass next time BTW)

I enjoyed the tactical look and decided a Talon SS would be next to shoot quietly and for shooting out to 60 yd.

Both in .22 cal...more is better on longer and hunting shots was my thinking.

The SS was so good at anything the 18" talon was that the first was sent out to be converted to a .25, It sucks air but that .25 is quite a round in the kodiaks. It's now a hunter.

the talon SS was actualy a little too light and the stability of a big 4-16x56 leapers swat setteled it down nicley. I added a good quality light to take advantage fo the big ol objective at night...and since it is the night gun it got a cheepo lazer as well.

the next few guns added were to catch up on my childhood. A 392LE to fill a childhood wish...a cheepo b5-10 cause it looked cool...and incidently is a really cool beater multi pump that hits what I shoot at. (.22 obviosly and .177)

.22 cal for anything but FT is my plan.

The Revo came next...It hits tighter groups than any gun I own. what can I say about that...except there was no extra rail for a light so I put a 3-9x44 leapers illuminated rectical on that....thwap,thwap,thwap.... bwahahah. I would like to see a change to the mag. however, a gun that costly deserves a metal clip. (can I get that in titanium?!!?)

But alas...for all the stability and practicality of the matt black and composite stocks...I miss the art and warmth of finely finished wood. I've finished a few guitars and worked as a reproduction finisher...I've worked on some high end tiger stripe drop leaf tables and such...So I'd jsut love to own a nicely stocked gun.

I tried a 9MM ultra to check out the bigbores. The fit and finish was...ok ...but parts painted parts blued...nah. And it was just too loud for my needs...the .25 does almost anything it woould have. so It was just sold...

Next up...I'm thinking may be a solo. I am sold on PCP powerplants plain and simple. But why would anyone want to carry higher tank pressures than needed??? So if I could shoot the same weight pellets and speeds...I'd gladly go for a lower fill pressure...BUT...those USFT guns don't come cheep...if there were a way yes...that way i$n't gonna work for me though.

I am surprised more guns don't use regulators...especially FT guns...but I'm sure there is a reason...same goes for titanium...I hear its a bear to mill.

well there you go it's raining, I'm stuck inside and you asked...

 
At 5:14 PM, turtle said...

BTW the solo is going to be a .177 for FT. I'd like to give it a try.

 
At 5:53 PM, Harley Ayre said...

Turtle,

Now THAT was an answer!

Thank you,

Harley

 
At 6:15 AM, traumerei@gmail.com said...

Caliber: I use .177 for plinking but .22 for hunting. No interest really in calibers larger than .22. Well actually I would be, but if you could get a .50 caliber @ 1000fps in a solid pellet, we'd probably say hello to a lot more legal regulation.

Anyway, subsonic pellets seem to be the ideal in that you get all the flat trajectory advantages of high fps with no supersonic inaccuracy. But there's little point to a bigger round if it doesn't produce more foot pounds than a smaller one and the way to do that is keep velocities fairly high. But speeds can only get so high before it just makes more sense to use a firearm. Between the sizes of a jackrabbit and a deer there isn't much to hunt that a larger than .22 airgun would be useful for and a firearm wouldn't make more sense. Or maybe not. You probably know the numbers better than I do so if you could comment.

Fill pressure: Many paintball tanks go up to 4500 psi and I don't know why we can't use them on our guns with a remote line and regulator. For me, the higher the better since that means more shots. Particularly, this means more regulated shots. What's not to like?

Regulators: A regulator is a must. Why worry about another variable in accuracy? Consistency = better accuracy and a regulator is the only way to get consistent pressure/fps. It is pretty irritating to have to remember how many shots have been fired so I can dial my scope to match the pressure/fps curve. With a high fill pressure, the amount of regulated shots could be extended quite a bit.

Repeaters: A repeater, as long as it could use the popular pellets (don't care about exotic two inch plastic tipped solid depleted uranium made in Turkmenistan type ones) would be nice. Whether for following up a shot in hunting or not messing up your cheek weld in target shooting, I'd say the advantages outweigh disadvantages. But repeater mechanisms vary quite a bit so the design would definitely be the deciding factor.

Size and weight: Small and light if possible. The AirForce system is nice. TDR size and interchangeable barrels lets you choose. How about a carbon fiber bottle stock @ 4500psi regulated? I do some trekking and hunting so lightweight is nice. Titanium as a modular option would be good as would carbon fiber parts. But that's somewhat low on my priority list since the AF guns are pretty light anyway. Aluminum and plastic are value winners really. Magnesium and fiberglass might be the next step up before the Titanium/Carbon fiber options. But I agree with turtle in that the guns are light enough to be too light sometimes.

How about a bullpup design? Long barrel and short gun = win.

Materials and finishes: Fiberglass stock is my pick. As long as it's rugged, lightweight, weatherproof and inexpensive, I'm happy. While that 10 meter laminated colorful stuff is neat, I'd much rather the money be spent on a quality regulator and barrel. Maybe a checkered Montecarlo as an option. That'd be a beautiful gun.

Pellets: I usually use diabolos since those are backyard and wallet friendly. For target shooting/plinking, I'll shoot as far as my scope and pellet type will allow. But for hunting, I shoot well within 100m. More accuracy the better of course; although I wouldn't try to hit a rabbit head at 100m, the capability is nice to have.

Accessories: Most of those items are pretty gimmicky except for maybe the bipod. I'd like an adjustable stock - not 10 meter crazy adjustable - but something that can raise the cheekplate and maybe lower the butt plate/pad. I use a shooting stand myself.

Night vision would be neat to have, particularly if you could hook it up to the scope easily. No Generation 1 or 2 stuff. But 3 is too pricey. The digital night vision equipment that uses IR and CCDs would be perfect. The range is about 100 yards and it is very sharp (could be sharper if they used higher spec parts). An IR signature isn't a problem either since we're not using these things in Iraq (at least if you ignore one of the odd marketing blurbs for the Condor). Pellet holder isn't a dealbreaker. But if you are going to make a new gun, then a clip holder built into the stock would be nice like some of the ?Theobens. Visible laser? Leave that to the airsoft crowd. Digital video capable scope? That would be real simple to do with a CCD setup. If you could work that and attach it to an eyepiece viewer, that'd be pretty much the ultimate tactical setup. Useless on a powerful air rifle, but I'm sure the militaryesque guys would eat it up for their airsoft or real steel assault rifles.

Anything else: I'd add an adjustable height scope rail (if it could be done with any kind of stability). An electronic trigger or a "breaking a glass rod" adjustable mechanical one would be fairly high up on the wish list.

How about a hand pump that could go to 4500psi? Probably have to be Hercules to use it but who knows - for years I didn't know they existed. Anyway, doubt many people know more than you having read your great blog. These are just my usability wishes. Those ... and a regulated powerful hunting pistol with scope rails.

 
At 7:51 AM, Harley Ayre said...

Another great comment,

By the way, 1,000 f.p.s. with a solid .50 caliber bullet has been achieved. I've been shooting .50 cal round balls from a Barnes rifle at over 1,000 f.p.s. for five years.

I will read the rest of your comment and perhaps have more of an answer later.

Harley

 
At 3:11 PM, Lamar said...

(PCP)Calibers:
I want a .177 for FT. For hunting I have .22cal. It's a good all around caliber, but I would like to have a .25cal for hunting also.

Regulators:
Companies like BSA, FX and Daystate(Air Arms is falling behind) are now building guns with self regulating valves(or CDT system in Daystate's case) that achieve shot to shot consistencies as good as or very close to those of regulated guns and at higher power levels. This seems to be a better direction for the American market since we are not concerned with wanting to shoot right up to a set fpe limit like the UK.

Repeaters:
I think repeaters are great for hunting for two reasons. The magazine gives to a quick follow up shot in case of a miss or less than lethal hit and the easiest way to carry pellets in the field is loaded in a magazine with the magazine in the rifle.

Size and Weight:
When I'm hunting in area's where the shots tend to be at longer ranges, I'll want the option of a full size, full power airgun so I can shoot at max airgun ranges. Power and accuracy and shot consistency become very important but not high shot count. I think for true hunting situations 25-30 shots is plenty and often 20 or less is enough.
If I'm in an area where shots are shorter range, I'd much rather carry a carbine and again give me a carbine with 20-25fpe for 20 shots and I'm happy. If I need to refill, that's what I have a pigmee tank in my backpack for. I'd much rather carry extra shot capacity on my back than on the gun.

Material and finishes:
For the most part I like nice wood and blued metal.

Pellets:
The short range of diabolo pellets is often advantageous to airgun use. However, It would be nice to have the option of airgun bullets for long range shooting.

Accessories:
For me, when hunting:
A laser rangefinder
A rifle sling
Quality shooting sticks
Ballistic data card taped to rifle stock

Anything else?
In general, I'd like to see more airguns designed from the ground up for the American market. The situation does seem to be improving in some areas. For example, more companies now are offering full shrouds on their guns.
The big problem is power. It seems much of what is available is designed at the 12fpe level then hacked for higher power for the US market. It seems Daystate and FX are both leading in more innovation and better designed guns for the US as well.

 
At 3:39 PM, Harley Ayre said...

Lamar,

Thanks for giving such an in-depth answer. I've barely digested the first two and now I have yours to examine.

This kind of feedback is the best possible information for a site like Airhog, because they are inclined to act on some of it!

Thanks again,

Harley

 
At 5:57 PM, turtle said...

Lamar great point Re: shot count needed on a "true" hunting gun...I agree 100%

 
At 6:39 PM, turtle said...

Another very high priority I forgot to mention...

Fully intigrated non removable shrouds...any thing that can be removed and put on a powderburner will get me in jail here.

 
At 6:47 PM, Harley Ayre said...

turtle,

Lots of interest in shrouds these days and I know Airhog is paying attentiuon.

Harley

 
At 6:45 AM, SJ Schnell said...

I'm in full agreement with Lamar, with the possible exception that I would place less emphasis on repeating shots/multishot capacity (for hunting). The two-shot shuttle on the Raider/Viper is nice for this - it gives a follow-up shot but is very quick to operate.

I heartily agree that quality shooting sticks in the field is a must.

I'd like to add also that I'm perfectly happy having several air rifles with differing purposes, and that I would prefer to see airgun companies focus on perfecting rifles for specific purposes rather than try to create one that "does it all". When I want to do some 10m target shooting, I want a 10m-style target rifle, with emphasis on quality open sights and stock adjustability. Power is much less important there. For hunting, power and long-range accuracy is a must. Also, sinc I must travel out of state to hunt with an air rifle, light weight and small dimensions are helpful (ie, I have a Venom Viper for hunting, a fairly compact rifle). For plinking, I want a rifle that's inexpensive, durable, and not a pain to operate.

It might be just the way I shoot, but for me, trigger quality is a dealbreaker. If the trigger is crap, the rifle is no good to me, no matter how great the rest of it is.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing prices come down a bit for the better air riles, but now I'm fantasizing.

Regards,

Steve in PA

 
At 7:29 AM, Harley Ayre said...

Steve in PA,

Thanks for your comments. It seems the Airhog readers have a lot to say about what they want!

Harley

 
At 7:30 PM, turtle said...

a link to what people are saying they "do NOT like" for you Harley.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1166097555/Which+Airguns+Didn%27t+Live+Up+to+the+Hype+%28For+You%29

hope it works for you

 
At 7:49 AM, Harley Ayre said...

turtle,

Well that was amusing. Reading the rantings of humanity. I guess the internet is a wonderful place for a stream of consciousness potlatch, but I don't find it useful.

When you consider that some of those comments were written by young boys and others by experienced shooters, the mishmash of maturity levels makes sense. Kind of like trying to listen to a conversation in the Superbowl stadium.

Harley

 
At 7:31 PM, turtle said...

Hahahaha, very well stated.

 
At 11:59 AM, MajorKonig said...

Harley ,

Quick question. Which model 0.50 cal of Barnes gets 1000 fps ?! As far as I know all big bores operate in the 650 - 850 fps range.

 
At 6:38 PM, Greg said...

"How about a bullpup design? Long barrel and short gun = win."

I concur!

 

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